Microsoft word - journal of excellence issue no 9.doc
Making the Impossible, Possible, Within a Relationship: An Interview with Lisa and Mike
Terry Orlick, Canada Lisa and Mike dedicated their life's efforts towards the pursuit of excellence. Lisa trained at very high levels in gymnastics (state champion as a child), dance (professional ballet, jazz), and acting. Mike’s educational efforts had been aligned with studying and living a life of personal excellence, as well as developing programs to share this vision with others. Both sought excellence, whether it was through physical training, education or personal growth. This story is about THEIR RELATIONSHIP and how they brought it back to life. Email for Lisa and Mike: amoxie@hotmail.com Email for Terry Orlick: excel@zoneofexcellence.com Abstract I am very interested in the process of how people face something that seems totally impossible, and change it into something that becomes possible. How do you go from believing that something is not going to work, that it won’t be successful, that it is finished or you are finished, to living the very thing that you thought was impossible? In the following interview, we explore this process within a relationship. Lisa and Mike, a bright and energetic couple from Southern California had been married for 8 years. Their marriage was on the verge of total collapse. Somehow they were able to turn that relationship around, to make the impossible, possible. How they managed to do this is the focus of this interview. Interview Transcript
cally just sat there and thought I just don’t
have the strength to continue, I’m just done.
Is it true that you both thought that your re-
lationship was finished, and that there was
What do you think were the pieces that ulti-
mately helped your relationship come back
I did, I was just done, I was done! So we
I think one of the pieces was that we were
mitment to go to counseling because I felt I
both open to it, Ok let’s just see what hap-
owed it to me and I owed it to Mike, to see
pens. I think the second piece was our coun-
if we could get it back. I didn’t know, and I
selor because she was very good at letting us
didn’t go in with any expectations. I basi-
say and stay in the moment, like don’t worry about what’s going to happen tomorrow or
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next week, but just try to be as comfortable
the house and I’m having a hard time out
as possible with the unknown. So there was
here. I said I don’t want to put any pressure
no pressure on us, this doesn’t have to be
on you to make a decision but at the same
done at this time or by that time, so that was
time I was kind of pressuring her because
she was witnessing how much difficulty I
was having. It was my struggle and my
One night we had gone out with our friends
challenge to not pressure her and not pres-
and that was like the twilight zone for me. I
sure myself, and to let go of all the things I
had a woman who I didn’t even know come
wasn’t able to control, which was the most
up to me and say that she was divorced and
challenging thing I have ever done. To really
so happy to be divorced, and that the guys in
LA are horrible. I had a high power agent
tell me that I sucked (as an actor) and I was
Two things I really recognized and Lisa will
never going to make it. It was just a flood of
say Yah. Lisa, how many times do you think
information that I took in and thought it out.
I said, Lisa, I’m not mad at you. I really re-spect the courage that you have. I must have
ing things out, things just started to become
said that a million times, because I was in
awe of her courage to really take a look at
and be responsible for her happiness. As she
It was a slow process, nothing had to be
often said, ‘you know the safest thing would
done right at that moment, which I think al-
be to stay in this relationship. You’re well
liked by people, you’re a young profes-
sional, people will think I am crazy for
questioning this’. And I didn’t see that. The
So you didn’t feel pressured at that time?
which also gave me the courage to ask what
I think the pressure I felt was coming from
me, like I felt I had to make a decision but
Who was initially asking the questions about
there was no pressure from anyone else, and
happiness, and who you really are? Lisa, do
Something that Lisa would often say, was I
feel so guilty for this, so guilt was a big
Yah. It’s going to sound so strange but it
factor because there was not a specific inci-
pretty much started in an acting class by a
dent that caused this in our lives, like one of
simple exercise, a repeat exercise. I have
us screwing up by infidelity. It was more
always kind of lived a guarded life, like not
taking a look at the hard questions. Am I
real open with people, and this exercise
happy and can I be happy in this relation-
forces you to break down those walls and
ship? Can I be who I want to be in this rela-
communicate from within, what’s coming
tionship, was something that Lisa started
from within you. From that point on, it was,
with. And there was pressure from my per-
ok what do I want, what am I doing, where
spective because there were times when we
would talk and I was saying, I moved out of
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I’ve been with Mike since I was 15, so I
know nothing else, and the holidays came
It could be an inflection. If someone says,
and I was feeling really stifled, like deci-
You look mad, I look mad, Yah you don’t
sions were being made for me, maybe they
agree, No I don’t agree, You sound annoyed,
weren’t but that was how I was feeling. So I
No I’m not annoyed, You’re not annoyed,
was making decisions based on what people
No I’m not annoyed. It comes from the Mis-
expected me to do. So nothing I did was for
me. It was like Mike will be mad if I do this
or my parents will be upset if I do that. So I
was just unhappy because I felt like I wasn’t
It brings in the need to be totally focused,
living my life and I wasn’t contributing
totally centered, totally here, and then totally
anything because I was like a puppet for
Can you tell me a little more about that act-
What did you get from the repeat exercise or
ing exercise you were doing that brought out
where did the repeat exercises take you?
The first couple of times I had gone up to do
It’s called a repeat exercise and basically
that exercise, it was just a very superficial
what you are doing is reading peoples inten-
thing. I would just repeat and I wasn’t really
tions. Like I say, Your eyes are green, and
looking at the person or really understanding
you say My eyes are green, Yah your eyes
what I was feeling, so my teacher stopped
are green, You agree, Yah I agree. You’re
me and said, well sometimes we just have
smiling, Yah I’m smiling, You’re happy,
walls, and she kind of fluffed it off, like
you’re someone who has walls and you’re
just going to have to break them down. And
Like you just have to strip yourself down
at that moment it was like, well I don’t want
to have walls, I just don’t know how else to
emotions. And the other person has to see
be. It was at that moment that it all just
who you are and it could be by picking up
broke down and I started crying, and she
asked for another partner to come up, and
that’s when I was able to kind of let go, and
that partner said to me, You look sad, Yah
Would they be trying to read emotions about
I’m sad, Yah I can see you’re sad, Yah I’m
how you might be feeling, like happy or sad
sad, and it just went on and it was just my
For the first 3 weeks of the class that’s all
Yes exactly, and the other person repeats.
we did, because it just breaks you down and
gets you in touch with you. Then you are
able to take a nursery rhyme and create this
whole story you want to create, by emotions
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I thought was incredible. And the courage to
say, hey I don’t know if this is what I want
(this relationship) and to tell me that.
Yah, and then it continued for the whole 4
In the context of our life, one of the prob-
months (of the class). Acting is all about re-
lems was that she felt insignificant in the
acting, but you have to know yourself and
relationship because I was taking more of
your feelings in order to emote what you are
the light. So she stood out from the light.
wanting to. And I was so closed off, I don’t
That was scary, it was new and she said, I
know what from, that I was just like a par-
think I want to walk out to the other lighted
rot, just talking words instead of feeling
Part of what I thought was important was
bearing witness and being part of Lisa’s
Therein is the courage again. I have heard
this story many times and I am constantly
spiritual process that allowed me to be open.
reminded of the courage it took to do that.
I don’t know if I believe in soul mates but
She did this in front of a group of 15 people,
we are both very spiritual and we want to be
and that courage was inspiring, and was one
good people, and I trust that in the deepest
of my anchors in this process (we were go-
part of my heart that Lisa wants to be a good
ing through). This was also the scariest part
person and so do I. And the right thing to do
of it because I trusted that Lisa would be
is to accept each other. So there is a very
able to say, no I don’t want this (relation-
ship) which was the scariest part and the
needed time apart. But not going out party-
ing and being wild but we needed time apart
to do our own work for ourselves and come
back together. That was scary. We had been
I think it was realizing that I don’t know if I
best friends for 15 years, married for 8 and
have ever had the courage to do something
in a monogamous relationship for those 8
like that. I was sure that there must have
person but this was so profound to me and
She called and said, I know we still have a
so rich in meaning and so painful an experi-
week to go but maybe we could go to church
ence for her. So I am watching this and I am
together (for Easter mass) because that had
going, oh my god, I am in this as well. So
been a part of our life together, so we went
seeing that courage, just being around it. I
and Lisa cried the entire time. I was so
can’t quite describe it other than being in
choked up by it. I can’t remember much of
awe. It was her ability to express her feel-
It was so hard after that to leave each other
I don’t think we express feelings too much.
because we had another week apart that we
That she did it in front of a group of people,
wanted to honor. And we both needed that
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space and wanted that space but it was so
incredibly hard, and that for me was when
the flood gates were really open, and I was
Then there was another time when we went
Yah, I knew that and it freaked me out. That
to a new church (about 3 months later) when
things felt good. Something lifted from us. I
felt it. There was something that happened
I liked my time by myself. I would just get
up for work and go to the gym, and I would
Yah I definitely felt that. But for me it goes
and with what I wanted to do and where I
much deeper that that because the reason
why I was so upset in April at church mass
(Easter) was because I didn’t know what I
was doing. Mike is my best friend and how
To add context, Lisa was living at home, she
can I be doing this. I don’t know if I want
him, I don’t know if I want to be married,
Did you have enough personal space there?
For so long I felt like … my family thought,
Oh Lisa is a success because she married
well. You know, Mike’s so smart and he’s
I had a lot of space. I didn’t have to do any-
good looking, and this and that and the other
thing that had to do with him (Mike). So it
thing. I was just Mike’s wife. Yah, I was tal-
was nice, it was a relief. That’s why I said
ented in certain things, but Gosh Mike’s is
so great, take care of him. I wanted to be the
more time than this because this felt like a
Lisa who could stand on her own feet, and to
Going through that phase of not wanting to
So you were feeling pretty good in terms of
be married, I was feeling this (marriage)
freedom and getting re-energized and doing
sucks. I’ve lost my independence; I can’t do
whatever I want. It was just too difficult. I
just couldn’t, I was just lost. I just didn’t
know who I was or where I stood or how I
wanted to dress in the morning, because I
always felt I had to be at a certain expecta-
What inspired you to call Mike that 3rd week
Once you decided to be apart for that first
We’ve done Easter together since I’ve been
going to church so I was thinking, what’s going to happen this year? I just called him
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and said, are we going to church together.
He said I don’t know, are we? And I said,
I was fine. Obviously I was going through
yah, I think that would be good. It can’t hurt.
whatever we were going through but I just
thought, I am going to see him Sunday and
pened (the crying) and that was a tough day
see how it goes. Just take it day by day.
cause things were so up in the air and we
I think the reason I felt so relieved moving
were so unsure. We didn’t know what was
tween us, and I didn’t want to have to go
home and deal with what was going on with
Can I jump in? She called me on Thursday
with me, that I can’t give you anything be-
and Easter mass was on Sunday. I remember
cause I am not happy. So I really enjoyed
that phone call. I really wanted to go to
church and I really wanted her to go for the
right reasons. I remember acting purpose-
fully. I just wanted to make sure she was not
going out of guilt or any pressure that was
each other, and that was a tragic event for
happening, but it really was for the right rea-
we’re away from each other but let’s do
counseling. We scheduled a counseling ap-
Those next couple of days (of waiting) were
just a complete blur. Up and down and up
living with each other. I remember going to
and down. Anticipation and hope, and back
that first counseling meeting after we hadn’t
down to what the hell is going on here. I had
been around each other for a about a week,
no idea and I was just trying to be myself as
thinking, this hasn’t been enough time apart
but I wanted to see what it was about (the
Mike, were you feeling a bit out of control?
I said I need more time, this is like a vaca-
life for sure was that Lisa and I were great
When we first went to see our counselor, I
thought there was just no way it was going
other. That was part of my identity. At some
to work, because I’m done. There is just no
point in our relationship, our identities
way that this woman is going to be able to
fused. In hindsight this (period of reflection
that we have been going through) has been
the best thing that has ever happened to us,
The first couple of times we went to coun-
seling, we just kind of looked at each other.
We’d go into counseling and Lisa would be
Lisa, what was happening with you during
screamed at in front of anyone. I was feel-
ing, this is so bad. We were engaging back and forth, and I’m hurt and I’m scared and
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I’m angry and the whole thing, and I’m not
in and out of some anger. I can remember
yelling, and Lisa’s yelling and I’m frus-
one vivid time when I was talking to a dear
trated. I put my hands in my head and I said,
friend of ours about it and I was pacing in
my god, this is really bad, and it’s really hit-
my office, I was very upset but that was very
ting me, this is really bad. And the counselor
minor. People expected me to be very angry
said, this is really bad, and Lisa said, you’re
about this. I did get angry, I just didn’t stay
damn right this is really bad. And it was bad,
that way for very long. I was hurt and scared
and identified those clearly. I never really
stayed angry at Lisa and we talked about
that quite a bit through the process. I think it
Our counselor was so good because in all
was really important that I understood what
this turmoil and all this craziness, she kept
was behind it, if there were to be anger,
saying, ‘It’s ok, there is no time line, there’s
there was something deeper than that which
no pressure, you feel this way, great. She
made Mike understand that it’s ok to be left
in the unknown. Just take it day by day,
which was really nice because I then didn’t
During these trying times were you thinking
have that added pressure that I have to do
it’s not going to work, or were you still
Yah I think that was really important, that
It was not good. My line was, if this was an
out left and right. But I knew when I said
that, that I’m still keeping 5% of my money
Yah she helped a lot with that. Just take it
in, and so for me it was never 100%, I’m
day by day. You don’t want to be together,
done. It was, this is really bad, I don’t think
you don’t have to be together. You’re fine.
it is going to work. I really don’t think this is
You’re where you are. If you’re not happy
going to work and I need to cut my losses.
where you’re living, move somewhere else,
And I didn’t cut my losses, I tried to move
through this in the most open way I could.
But I did not think it was going to work.
Lisa, did you know that I thought it was not
And we had to agree to that though. People
can make the suggestion but we had to work
No. I don’t know if I thought about that.
You kept saying to me over and over again,
And it was more you, I think. Because it was
‘you’re going to have to do this, I’m not
me saying, I need time. And it had to come
going to make it easy for you and say I walk
from Mike for him to say, ok well I’ll give
away because you’re going to have to walk
Yah, and during this process a lot of people
Right, because I think something easy was
expected me to be very angry and I had gone
like, all right you’re going to give me this
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shit, well piss off. I don’t have to take this.
And that’s what Lisa is saying now, I was
We were still separated. And I go and see a
not going to make it easy because I was go-
psychiatrist. I was just really anxious and
ing to be as genuine with my process and
depressed, and my thoughts were just get-
During this whole process I had spent a full
month without sleeping, maybe an hour or
And we’ve grown up together, so its not just
two hours, but I was not sleeping, so I was
Mike, it’s Mike’s whole family. I’ve always
just, crazy.I would just wake up and then
said through this whole thing, it had nothing
I’m awake, thinking about what am I doing,
to do with Mike. I didn’t want to change
Mike. It wasn’t like, oh you’re horrible, it
going to think, what is Mike going to think ?
had nothing to do with him. It just had to do
with if I could be the person that I wanted to
psychiatrist so I could sleep, please give me
be in this relationship. So I think it just boils
medication (Zoloft) the end of May. I was
just, I can’t take this, it’s just too much. And
then during that time I said, let’s just date,
and let’s just see how it goes, and we don’t
have to think about the other pressures. Then
I got on medication and it seems to have
Both, my respect for him, and this relation-
really helped and balanced me back out and
And that is going to help you be what you
How long did it take to start to feel some-
Probably a month, maybe a little longer.
Absolutely. I never put it that way but I’ve
And when it’s time to put up or shut up, it
was like, I really have respect for what you
are doing here, I’m really scared, but I re-
grounded, and I think it just allowed me to
spect this. I think that was huge, that we did
sleeping, and I wasn’t feeling so anxious,
and I was feeling more confident in myself
and just being ok with, well if it doesn’t
Lisa, during these emotional exchanges were
work, I will go on and I’m ok. Let’s just see
you living on your own or back living to-
maybe it won’t. I was just more comfortable
in myself. I was ok either way. If I left, I
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was going to be fine, and if I stayed, I was
still working through that but let’s just see
was it just that you were feeling better about
That shift from you feeling, it’s finished,
there’s no chance, I’m out of here, to maybe
there’s a little opening, maybe a chance,
weren’t living together. He was in a new
maybe let’s date, and feeling ok with your-
scene. We weren’t dealing with the day to
day pressures, so we were just having fun.
No I really don’t. I did it because we have
been friends for so long and I owed it to
Mike, and I owed to myself to see if I could.
We had been together 15 years and we have
Yah, we would go to dinner, go to dinner
a lot of ties woven in, family, you know,
with friends, and we pretty much spent the
we’re Mike and Lisa and everyone thinks
whole summer together, it was like lala land.
we’re just perfect. So I thought I really need
to see for myself if this is really over.
time and laughing and not worrying about
relationship stuff and school and whatever,
What I think really helped was having no
our responsibilities. We were just having fun
and laughing and enjoying each other. And I
think that the more time we spent together
really wanted. I mean bottom line is Mike’s
a great guy. He’s intelligent, he’s amazing,
so there is no reason for me to leave because
were still dealing with everything, but it was
he is so amazing but I had to see that for
like a process of, you know I want to be
myself. I had to feel like I want to stay here
because of me. Like I WANT to be here, not
And I think our whole process in counseling
too. Mike was open to seeing the flaws that
were really getting to me. And little by little
I know that some of these questions are dif-
he started to understand me more with cer-
ficult and maybe you can’t answer them but
I am asking you to just give me what you
can. You went through periods of wanting to
be together initially, to losing yourself and
thinking I can’t handle this, to thinking we
are great friends, I owe it to him to at least
see how I am feeling, to actually wanting to
Umm, Like you’re, like I’m one way but
be back together. What do you think influ-
(pause) I can give you an example. I felt like
enced that last step – ‘Now I want to be here
if I wanted a hamburger I couldn’t have a
in this relationship’? Was there anything in
hamburger because Mike’s like, ‘You’re
particular or something you were thinking
eating a hamburger’! And it may not have
been done in a condescending way but it felt
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like a condescending way. And so our coun-
like this and so I would say “you’re eating a
selor helped him understand how that could
hamburger”, that’s kind of like you are say-
be taken in a condescending way. So then he
wasn’t doing things like that as much, he
You can’t do both, eat that way and want to
was aware of it. Because that had happened
all the way growing up. I did a dance show
and it was a kind of a stripping number but
obviously I had clothes on. He flipped out. ‘I
And it just got to be too much, and my re-
don’t want to be with you, this is too much, I
don’t want to be with a girl’ (who does that).
Ok, well I won’t do that anymore. It didn’t
come from that I didn’t want to do it. It
And really I shouldn’t have. That was not
couldn’t do it. And then it came to I don’t
want you dressing that way. And then I was
wearing long sweaters and his best friend
came up to me and said, you are putting on
those areas, are you saying he was adapting,
weight Mike is going to leave you. Ok, so
I’ve got to lose weight. It’s like I became
something and not just talking about it?
what he wanted me to be. I didn’t become
Lisa. Because that’s where I wanted to go.
It’s very hard for me to hear that because
while I was doing those things, I did do
those things, I never realized it, and it was
Prior to going through this whole process we
out of a scared place for me and at the same
are sharing, we would talk as if our relation-
time there was some naivety there. We were
ship was good. There was some tension right
both in high school and then I also did in
up to the event where she said I need to be
college too. So it’s really hard for me to hear
by myself, but we would talk like oh, that
poor couple over there, I’m glad we’re not
sounds really sick. Thank God I am doing
having to deal with that. Like totally blind to
It goes back to my dancing days. We’d be
weighed and we had to be a certain weight
so I have always had an issue with food.
Lisa was a state champion in gymnastics,
she was a professional dancer, both had had
Right. And so it got to the point where I
body image things and boy was I insensitive
couldn’t even stand to hear him talk, or eat,
with those things. And as an actor she would
always say, I want to be thin, I want to look
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She would tell me, please stop breathing
It was just kind of like, as time went on we
apart. It was almost like reintroducing our
relationship. And then it came to the point
Yah right, cause I had so much stuff going
where, like I don’t want to leave. And then
on inside of me, and by the time all that
we started to talk about, ok should you move
started evolving with Mike wanting me to
do this or that, I had lost complete touch
with myself. That’s where it goes back to I
needed to do things for me and not because
I want to go back to provide a framework.
of what they saw me as or they wanted me
school. I think the entire school knew that
Lisa was just crazy about me. So I got cho-
sen, so part of the thrill is the hunt, I didn’t
So because of some these changes you have
get to hunt. I always knew that in the back
told me about, you started to think more
of my head. It felt really wonderful that
our lives together I kind of had that in the
Yah, things were getting better and we were
back of my head. When we split this past
needed to happen for both of us and that
identities, and it just evolved into where we
kept me with that 5% of hope that I previ-
are at this point. We spent all summer apart,
And I knew I was going to be ok, I knew in
my heart Lisa would be ok, even though she
But seeing each other a couple of times a
didn’t know that or feel that. I really knew
that. Then towards the end of the summer
I’m going, now what are we doing here. I
wanted to say no one time, that you can’t
Yah, two or three times a week and towards
stay here. And it was a big deal for the first
the end of the summer we would spend the
time. It allowed me to feel that I had a say in
this process. For me that was a major step in
It first started like on the week-end, like I’d
It was getting to the point that we were see-
progressed he’d come to watch me dance on
ing each other every Friday and Saturday
and going out. So he said what if I don’t
want to see you tonight and I want to go out
Yah I really reinvested in her activities. I felt
so lucky to be able to do that again, like I didn’t want to miss a thing.
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Her genuiness gave me a tremendous sense
Oh yah he was driving me crazy, this and
I think it goes back to just both of us making
changes along the way and not staying rigid,
again, but we were not consuming the other
What sorts of things were creating that?
I think it was the original things coming up
in different ways. I can’t remember to tell
you the truth, but I just remember it re-
gressing back to some of the frustrations that
the decision. I either had to get my own
place or are we ready for me moving back
in. We had already been talking about me
Because I guess old patterns are hard to
moving to the beach or him moving back in.
break, and you are kind of doing the same
We decided, I think we are ready, we are
things, like I don’t want to talk about a
getting along. I still want to go to counseling
house, I am not ready to get a house, that
and we are still going to counseling. So let’s
try it out. Let’s go back, live together. There
was definitely anxiety with that, just because
we want to get a house and we want to do
I guess it was the stress of dealing with the
this and that, and our counselor was good to
day-to-day things. I think what was really
say, ‘ok just slow it down, you don’t have to
important in getting through this was that we
think about that, just reintroduce everything
slowly. And it has just been a process of
being aware of the other person’s feelings
We didn’t get stuck in one right way. We
and respecting the other person and still do-
also had very strong role models which I
ing your stuff, still living life separate but
think was important in this process too. My
One thing I think is important to log here.
When we moved back in together, it got bad
again, not really bad, but we regressed in
some ways and that was I think a critical
Oh yah, thank you. 33 years and her parents
have been married 33 years and both of our
counseling after we moved back, it was like
grand parents have been married their whole
lives as well, so we had role models but I
don’t think we are like any one of them. We
2004 Zone of Excellence - http://www.zoneofexcellence.com
all my heart, trust that Lisa and I are in love
Later today, you and your family and close
today, and I DO have 100% faith in our re-
friends are going to the chapel to renew your
lationship as a loving union. Things are
really good. I feel really connected to Lisa. I
married you 8 years ago. How did that come
feel very comfortable in my skin around her.
I feel like I can become further who I want
to become. And I think we’ve got a great
chance at it. We are going to say ‘till death
I think it is more for us. Like I wanted it to
do we part’ and I am fully 100% committed
be very small and now it is bigger. But I
to that. But I don’t want to put the pressure
think we made a decision to come back to-
in the same way that we had to deal with be-
fore. It’s like I accept Lisa for who she is
and I believe in those statements we are go-
ing to make tonight, I am awake when I say
them this time, I am really fully awake when
I think that is what people lack when they
get married, they kind of just look at, oh, I
When we first got married it was like a prom
am getting married, it’s the knight in shin-
school sweetheart, this is great, just get me
know. I think the work has to come from the
to the church. But this time around it is like,
individual first to then be able to really work
yah, for better for worse, for richer, for
on a marriage, and people don’t. And when
we stand up there we don’t know what it
think a lot of couples don’t think about that.
husband has (a life-threatening illness) and
her statement is, I didn’t sign up for this.
So how have things been going in the last
Obviously she’s got work to do on herself.
I guess some things we can’t really know
until we are into them. But the experiences
You know, they’re good. It is not perfect. It
would be silly to say with 100% certainty
as a result of them, makes your chances of
that when we renew our vows tonight that
we will absolutely stay together for the rest
of our lives. This may sound like I’m not
sure if things will work out, but that is not
the case. The reality is that I’m more aware
You know I can’t even fathom a situation in
of the fallacy of permanence. There is so
my life, in my relationship with Lisa, a
much within this relationship that I don’t
situation that would cause divorce. I just
have control over, it’s scary, but I do, with
can’t picture one if we work through this,
2004 Zone of Excellence - http://www.zoneofexcellence.com
which was major, a huge deal. I can’t imag-
some obstacles and say, I’m out of here. It’s
ine one that we couldn’t negotiate because
too hard, too much energy and want to start
the core elements of us respecting each other
fresh. I am not sure that starting fresh is any
and trusting and being really genuine, we
better (unless it is really abusive) because
can kind of put in our back pack and take
you don’t know what you are getting really.
with us everywhere we go, in every situa-
That was big for us. We didn’t believe in
same stuff to the relationship and that in-
each other so that if things are getting a little
vestment I wanted to reinvest with Lisa.
bit off track, you can kind of talk about it,
Cause I think being single at least on my end
We are still going to counseling and it’s
was not what I wanted. I didn’t want to go
wonderful. Like that hour together just to-
and do that whole thing. There was just no
tally focused on the relationship has been
So it wasn’t about that, it was about finding
It’s interesting because probably most peo-
ourselves. And for the record we don’t think
ple never make time for that. When are you
going to make time for an hour to talk solely
about your lives, and your connectedness or
think they are great things, it’s just what
We missed a counseling appointment about
other people where everything is falling
2 weeks ago. And we said to each other why
apart on a regular basis and they are not ca-
don’t we do it ourselves. We met earlier in
pable of doing anything about it, and make
comparisons, then it becomes exceptional.
In relationships that probably has to come
This is also the first time that somebody has
We didn’t get into anything heavy but it was
taken an interest in my process in anything.
just making time for each other, knowing
Like I have never been interviewed, other
than things I have done with work, but not
my personal process. So this was quite an
I am honored to have been able to hear your
story. I think it’s great. Both of you should
congratulate yourselves on doing something
I was kind of reluctant to ask you and Lisa
that so few people do. They usually face
to do the interview. I was thinking, what is
2004 Zone of Excellence - http://www.zoneofexcellence.com
Lisa going to say when you ask her about
I am happy that you both agreed to sit down
doing this interview. Here is this guy who
and share some of your journey with me. I
she doesn’t even know asking her to share
am sure you are both going to end up doing
some pretty intimate things. I didn’t want to
create any anxiety and that’s why I kept
Sometimes it just takes a while for doors to
saying to you, make sure she is ok with it,
open. But if you are ready, when the door
2004 Zone of Excellence - http://www.zoneofexcellence.com